Henry and Adie Sitting in a Tree...

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Lammergeier created the topic: Henry and Adie Sitting in a Tree...

Henry (oscar) and Adie (severum) are acting like they've paired up lol. The last week or so I've seen them clearing sand off the driftwood, rocks and the bottom of the tank together, and a couple of time's Adie's done this little wiggle dance thing. I was worried about it at first but she isn't flashing or anything, water parameters are good (nitrate ~5ppm, everything else 0). Whenever she does it Henry rushes over to her and looks really interested which is just super cute. When they've been clearing a rock or something they chase away any SDs that come near :whistle:

I thought they were getting along well lately, but there was no need for them to get along this well. They're never more than 50cm apart these days. They sleep huddled together (touching some nights) in front of the inlet and cruise around together constantly. No nipped fins, no bickering, they even eat sinking pellets with their heads touching some nights. It's adorable, but how do I break it to them that even if they try, they can't make babies? :laugh:
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Poseidon2.0 replied the topic: Henry and Adie Sitting in a Tree...

Fun. There are a surprising number of websites posting Oscar-severum mating questions. This seems to happen a lot. Exhibit A:
www.oscarfish.com/oscar-forum/viewtopic.php/f,1/t,54935/

Exhibit B:
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110522105502AAKhItF

Some yahoo even created a spurious theory that the Black Acura was a Oscar/Sev cross. . . . . :S
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ernie replied the topic: Re:Henry and Adie Sitting in a Tree...

How old is Henry isn't he still a teenager in Oscar years? It may be time for the birds and bees talk lol.btw I'm liking your new avatar it has been bringing out your dark side lol.
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Lammergeier replied the topic: Re:Henry and Adie Sitting in a Tree...

Lol, thanks ernie :whistle:

I've had Henry since May and he was a few months old when I got him. He's probably around 10 months old now so he should be getting into his 'teenage' stage, but tbh he still looks and acts like a big overgrown baby. I blame Adie and her wiggling for corrupting him. If Adie lays eggs I'll probably just let them play parent for a few hours then siphon them out. If they turn brown/tan I'll have a fit because there's no evidence anywhere that oscars and sevs can hybridise to my knowledge. What would I call the babies? Oscerums? :D

Luckily I don't need to give the birds and the bees talk, because something is just in the water in that tank lol. All my SDs have been getting courtship colours and chasing each other around too for the last month or two. I've seen a good few mating dance wiggles from them, but no eggs yet.
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Darth Nandopsis replied the topic: Henry and Adie Sitting in a Tree...

"Black Acura.....

Nope.....that's a car!!! LOL B)

I found this a while ago on the net, & have kept it, just as FYI:

Remember that American Cichlids are essentially split up into two categories: Central American and South American.

1. All Central American Cichlids can hybridize with any other Central American Cichlid - Until it is proven otherwise, assume all Central Americans can hybridize with one another.

2. All Central American Cichlids can hybridize with any Hybrid Central American Cichlid - Most commercially sold hybrid cichlids are of Central American descent and should be considered Hybrid CA Cichlids. This includes Parrot Cichlids, Flowerhorn Cichlids, and Red Texas Cichlids.
Exception to the rule: Sterility occurs in hybrid cichlids commonly in males and occasionally in female, Parrot Cichlids being a great example of this as nearly ever single male is sterile. A sterile parent will not produce viable fry.

3. No South American Cichlid can hybridize with any Central American Cichlid - Until it is proven otherwise, assume that no South American Cichlids can hybridize with any Central American. No South American Cichlid has ever been confirmed to successful hybridize with any Central American Cichlid, any case of this happening successfully has been word of mouth.
Exception to the rule: Cichlasoma Festae can successfully hybridize with any Central American Cichlid. Cichlasoma Festae is essentially a Central American Cichlid living in South America.

4. No South American Cichlid can hybridize with any other South American Cichlid - Until it is proven otherwise, assume that South American Cichlids can not hybridize with any South American. No South American Cichlid has ever been confirmed to successful hybridize with any South American Cichlid, any case of this happening successfully has been word of mouth.
Exception to the rule: Same genus South American Cichlid can potentially hybridize with one another. For example a Green Terror (Aequidens Rivulatus) can hybridize with a Blue Acara (Aequidens pulcher).

Some example:
Firemouth (CA Cichlid) x Green Texas (CA Cichlid) = Viable Fry
Flowerhorn (HCA Cichlid) x Jack Dempsey (CA Cichlid) = Viable Fry
Synspilum (CA Cichlid) x Festae = Viable Fry
Severum (SA Cichlid) x Red Devil (CA Cichlid) = No Fry (And no this is not how Blood Parrots are made....)
Green Terror (SA Cichlid) x Oscar (SA Cichlid) = No Fry

Now there is the occasional rumor about CA Fish A breeding with SA Fish B and getting fry. One notable example of this is Convict x Severum, there have been a few reports of this happening. Until it is 100% proven to be true, I choose to be skeptical.


You should post a video for this...would be cool to see.

THOSE WHO REFUSE KNOWLEDGE ARE DOOMED TO FAIL.

WATER CHANGES ARE THE LIFEBLOOD OF THIS HOBBY. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE SO OR SIMPLY DON'T FEEL LIKE DOING THEM, RE-HOME YOUR FISH, SELL YOUR AQUARIUM & FIND ANOTHER HOBBY, AS YOU WILL FAIL UTTERLY, COMPLETELY, & MISERABLY.
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Lammergeier replied the topic: Henry and Adie Sitting in a Tree...

Thanks Jack. I might see if I can get Mr. Lamm to set up a time lapse. Henry's so attention hungry (and hungry) he tends to rush to the front of the tank if we're in view. Most of these shenanigans I've managed to see before they've noticed me there.

One thing I find fascinating (and confusing) from a taxonomic standpoint is how CA cichlids can hybridise with each other. An old way of thinking is that species are usually only distinct when they can't produce viable offspring together, but newer research is showing that isn't necessarily the case. There's a form of speciation called hybrid speciation where two different species can interbreed, leading to a distinctly new species. It used to be considered really rare, but with DNA testing and that it's turning out to be more common. There's some species of dolphin, I think, that's been shown to be a hybrid between two other species (it is now it's own distinct one).

Just speculation, but I wonder (given the tendencies of CAs to readily hybridise) whether at least some CA species have come into existence that way. It also makes differentiating species a lot more complex than previously thought. Little wonder the taxonomic names of cichlids seem to change so often.
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Rocksor replied the topic: Henry and Adie Sitting in a Tree...

Lammergeier wrote: Thanks Jack. I might see if I can get Mr. Lamm to set up a time lapse. Henry's so attention hungry (and hungry) he tends to rush to the front of the tank if we're in view. Most of these shenanigans I've managed to see before they've noticed me there.

One thing I find fascinating (and confusing) from a taxonomic standpoint is how CA cichlids can hybridise with each other. An old way of thinking is that species are usually only distinct when they can't produce viable offspring together, but newer research is showing that isn't necessarily the case. There's a form of speciation called hybrid speciation where two different species can interbreed, leading to a distinctly new species. It used to be considered really rare, but with DNA testing and that there's some species of dolphin, I think, that's been shown to be a hybrid between two other species (it is now it's own distinct one).

Just speculation, but I wonder (given the tendencies of CAs to readily hybridise) whether at least some CA species have come into existence that way. It also makes differentiating species a lot more complex than previously thought. Little wonder the taxonomic names of cichlids seem to change so often.


Unfortunately for the Herichthys labridens sp media luna, hybridization is occurring in the wild. The introduction of Herichthys carpinitis to their natural habitat by man is causing this species numbers to dwindle.
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Darth Nandopsis replied the topic: Henry and Adie Sitting in a Tree...

I'm not sure that would work with or applies to fish.......usually hybrids (piscine) have malformations, as we see in abominations like the Blood parrot.

I do find it odd that SA cannot interbreed (w/ the exception of Festae, which really are a CA species stuck in SA!!) w/ anything, given that all cichlids are thought to have descended from marine species.....& there are a few species of cichlid that can tolerate marine waters (I believe the Black Belt, the Mayan, & I know the Mozambique tilapia can).

deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/51532/Oldfield_Saltwater_Cichlids_2004.pdf

Sorry to hijack.....just random discussion.

THOSE WHO REFUSE KNOWLEDGE ARE DOOMED TO FAIL.

WATER CHANGES ARE THE LIFEBLOOD OF THIS HOBBY. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE SO OR SIMPLY DON'T FEEL LIKE DOING THEM, RE-HOME YOUR FISH, SELL YOUR AQUARIUM & FIND ANOTHER HOBBY, AS YOU WILL FAIL UTTERLY, COMPLETELY, & MISERABLY.
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Lammergeier replied the topic: Henry and Adie Sitting in a Tree...

Hijack away :lol: it's cheering me up a bit (s***** family stuff) so thanks for the distraction.

If species hybridisation can occur in mammals it can definitely occur in fish. mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/11/21/molbev.msr183.full is an interesting (but ridiculously wordy) read about the possibility that species hybridisation occurred before the species explosion of cichlids in Lake Malawi.

I'm certainly not certain, but I'm thinking SA cichlids may not be able to interbreed as freely as their CA counterparts simply because they're more diverse genetically.

There are 5 subfamilies of cichlids in SA (this is all from fishbase): Astronotinae (oscars and relatives), Cichlasomatinae (inc. cichlasoma, aequidens, heros etc etc - big group), Cichlinae (peacock bass and relatives), Geophaginae (earth eaters) and Retroculinae (retroculus).

There are only 2 subfamilies of cichlids in CA, and of these only one really counts - Cichlasomatinae (there's one geophagus species in CA - G. crassilabris). All the well-known CA cichlids belong to this subfamily, with most belonging to the tribe Heroini (Amphilophus etc) or Cichlasomatini (Cichlasoma sp. etc).

All the CA species that commonly hybridise belong to the Cichlasomatinae subfamily, and red terrors also belong to it.

It seems to me like most of the American cichlid hybridisation is limited to that subfamily. I'd hazard a guess that it is possible to have hybrids occurring between SA species just like CA ones, but they'd have to be in that subfamily for it to occur. It's also possible that cichlids within any subfamily can interbreed. I wouldn't be surprised if A. ocellatus and A. crassipinnis were able to interbreed, for example.

The other thing that could confound it is behavioural compatibility. SA cichlids tend to have more diverse habitats (even within species) than CA cichlids. Even if two SA species were compatible genetically, behavioural differences may impede any courtship attempts.

Sadly, for Henry and Adie it means that they will definitely not be making babies any time soon. Adie's more closely related to my RDs and Ganbie than she is to Henry lol.
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Darth Nandopsis replied the topic: Henry and Adie Sitting in a Tree...

My whole stance on hybrids (fish)? Abominations (fh's, bp's) that should be eradicated from the hobby.......(try to find a pure strain tri-mac these days!!).....also, too many cichlid species going extinct in the wild....hence the importance of breeding ones in jeopardy in captivity....most of these hybrids are ugly as hell anyway .........although I did see a managuense X dovii that was cool...but this thing was so aggressive it was psychotic!! I know that they do occur in the wild & more often in the home aquarium by accident (those convicts/festae sure do get around!! :laugh: ) but to purposely do it for profit & make horrific mutants that look like they came form the outflow of a nuclear power plant turns my stomach. :sick:

This is one reason I left the ACA...they now allow FH's, or they were discussing it. :pinch:

THOSE WHO REFUSE KNOWLEDGE ARE DOOMED TO FAIL.

WATER CHANGES ARE THE LIFEBLOOD OF THIS HOBBY. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE SO OR SIMPLY DON'T FEEL LIKE DOING THEM, RE-HOME YOUR FISH, SELL YOUR AQUARIUM & FIND ANOTHER HOBBY, AS YOU WILL FAIL UTTERLY, COMPLETELY, & MISERABLY.
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