Should I wait?

  • Nina_W
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Nina_W replied the topic: Re: Should I wait?

You take them to a pet shop where some unsuspecting kid buys them, and they die a few months later, never having gotten old.

I don't know, Jack. This one I can't agree with you, unless you religiously keep water quality fine on your tank that you're cycling - and if you're doing that, rather put your own fish on the line.

Ten weeks (heck, even two weeks) of exposure to high ammonia/nitrites can do permanent damage. If you have hard water to start off with, this is even worse, it builds up to toxic concentrations very quickly. The fish themselves may come off with slightly damaged gills, but the real damage is seen in their fry: crooked backs and misshapen little ones all over the place.

I can confirm this from my own experience, and from a few other guppy tanks that I know of. I know that's a pretty insignificant sample. I don't know about the scientific literature.

I also know that a great many fish that have undergone this never grow to be their full size, and die young.

I know this method works, but I still don't know about the fish afterwards. With some mustard on a cracker might be ethically more sound.
I don't see why Butch, or Wicket, should be treated any better than a guppy or a swordtail - oscars and jaguars are also quite hardy.

I don't know. I don't want to fight. It's been a long day. But since we have a method that works - fishless cycling - I don't see why it shouldn't be the first port of call.
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ehall67 replied the topic: Re: Should I wait?

molly in mustard on a wheat cracker huh ?


well I will try it twice b4 I decided

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  • Darth Nandopsis
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Darth Nandopsis replied the topic: Re: Should I wait?

Nina_W wrote: You take them to a pet shop where some unsuspecting kid buys them, and they die a few months later, never having gotten old.

I don't know, Jack. This one I can't agree with you, unless you religiously keep water quality fine on your tank that you're cycling - and if you're doing that, rather put your own fish on the line.

Ten weeks (heck, even two weeks) of exposure to high ammonia/nitrites can do permanent damage. If you have hard water to start off with, this is even worse, it builds up to toxic concentrations very quickly. The fish themselves may come off with slightly damaged gills, but the real damage is seen in their fry: crooked backs and misshapen little ones all over the place.

I can confirm this from my own experience, and from a few other guppy tanks that I know of. I know that's a pretty insignificant sample. I don't know about the scientific literature.

I also know that a great many fish that have undergone this never grow to be their full size, and die young.

I know this method works, but I still don't know about the fish afterwards. With some mustard on a cracker might be ethically more sound.
I don't see why Butch, or Wicket, should be treated any better than a guppy or a swordtail - oscars and jaguars are also quite hardy.

I don't know. I don't want to fight. It's been a long day. But since we have a method that works - fishless cycling - I don't see why it shouldn't be the first port of call.


Nina,
I know I would recommend this method over some newbie aquarist handling a harsh chemical such as pure ammonia. I have also returned countless livebearers to my LFS over the years none the worse for wear. I don't wish to fight about this topic either. You have your way, & I have mine. This is my preferred method, & I will continue to recommend it & espouse it over fishless cycling.
Jack

PS.......I would politely suggest that the crooked backs & such seen in guppies you mention are the result of generations of inbreeding, not short-term exposure to ammonia & nitrite.

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WATER CHANGES ARE THE LIFEBLOOD OF THIS HOBBY. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE SO OR SIMPLY DON'T FEEL LIKE DOING THEM, RE-HOME YOUR FISH, SELL YOUR AQUARIUM & FIND ANOTHER HOBBY, AS YOU WILL FAIL UTTERLY, COMPLETELY, & MISERABLY.
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6629 replied the topic: Re: Should I wait?

Heres the crazy thing... I have x2 aquaclear 30's and a fluval FX5 on the 29 gallon. I have had a fluval 406 running on the 120g since I filled it. and Both of my tanks have no ammonia and no nitrites. 29g has low nitrates and mid 7 PH and the new 120 has no ammonia or nitrite or nitrate reading but also has a mid 7 PH. I have struggled with trying to get perfect water quality and have yet to do so. all readings are good, however I do around a 60% water change every other day on the 29g.

I have plenty of filtration i think for the 29g. but i do plan to put the FX5 on the 120 with the 406 when i put my JD and O in there. I just worry that no amount of filtration is enough for that stock in a 29g. hence the clarity issues. SO my question is should I cycle with them in the 120g and just monitor my levels with WC? or just leave them in the 29 until the 120 is cycled?
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tehmole replied the topic: Re: Should I wait?

that's a lot of filtration for a 29gal. how long was your fx5 and HOB sat with your tank? if it's 3 months + that's should be enough good bb to establish your 120 instantly - can someone chime in and clear that up?
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6629 replied the topic: Re: Should I wait?

they have only in the past month been on there around a month. before that I had a crappy 20-40 HOB and that was it. so they are not completley established. But i do have nitrate readings and no nitrite or ammonia. So i think they are pretty close if not already there. I did use stress zyme regularly since i put new filters on the 29g.
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  • Nina_W
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Nina_W replied the topic: Re: Should I wait?

If your readings are fine (ammonia at 0, nitrite at 0, and nitrates below 20) then cloudy water won't harm your fish.

Rather wait out the cycle, I think?
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tehmole replied the topic: Re: Should I wait?

ya i would wait out on till its fully cycled.
it's not a well established filter since it's only cycling for a month or so.

you have way enough filtration for your tank, just upkeep on the water change and keep an eye on the water condition .. the cycle will be nice and quick
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Firestorm8215 replied the topic: Re: Should I wait?

Now you know I am one of your biggest fans Jack , because you do have an endless amount of great advice ...but I do have to ask.
Is it not safe to assume that a new aquarist will probably kill a fair amount of those fish while trying to cycle a tank ? You have a lot of experience , so I am fairly certain your livebearers make it back to the pet store just one. And what if you are in an area where they are not willing to take them back ? I have one PetCo , almost an hour away. That is the only store in my area willing to take any fish in when they have room. And I am not certain thats even for normal fish that you may use to cycle a tank. I think its more of a rescue thing...
I do understand that pure ammonia is a harsh chemical , but some people may not have any better options.

And yes , I fully agree. If the water quality can be kept up while waiting for the big tank to cycle its what should be done.
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Darth Nandopsis replied the topic: Re: Should I wait?

Sandra,
If you wish to do & recommend a fishless cycle, that's your right & prerogative. I will state that getting fishwater in your eyes will not send you to the hospital; ammonia most definitely will;it is used a house-hold cleaner, & will also make you light-headed & can possibly make you pass out if not well ventilated. I do wonder why people worry more about a fishes well-being far less than a humans......I would also say I haven't yet found a LFS that wouldn't take back fish you bought free of charge.
Again, if anyone wants to do a fishless cycle, by all means, do so. I'm not stating that this method(fishless) does not work; but I use my method, which to me, is the most natural & by far the safest means available; I've used it w/ great success, will continue to do so as needed, & will recommend it time & again over fishless.
Jack

THOSE WHO REFUSE KNOWLEDGE ARE DOOMED TO FAIL.

WATER CHANGES ARE THE LIFEBLOOD OF THIS HOBBY. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE SO OR SIMPLY DON'T FEEL LIKE DOING THEM, RE-HOME YOUR FISH, SELL YOUR AQUARIUM & FIND ANOTHER HOBBY, AS YOU WILL FAIL UTTERLY, COMPLETELY, & MISERABLY.
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