feelings

  • tacha
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tacha created the topic: feelings

Hey

I had 2 oscars, 2 days ago, they began to fight and I moved one of them from the tank. the one fish that remain seem to have some problems.
the colors are completely changed and he hides much more.
at first I thought he was hungry and fed him more now he has a big belly.
they say fish have no feelings but I doubt that, I mean how can they test these things?
and he seems very unhappy.

greetings
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Poseidon2.0 replied the topic: feelings

Well tacha, I don't think anyone here will argue with you that oscars are very moody fish. :) Sorry that he is in a rut. Big changes will typically cause mood/emotional and color changes in oscars. This is normal. Give him time and he will get back to normal.

I would not recommend feeding extra food to your fish's diet. Overfeeding will only elevate nitrate levels and can cause health problems down the road.

I forget. How large is your aquarium? How large is the secondary aquarium for the fish you moved out of the main tank? Two oscars need at least 110 gallon tank and 150-180 gallon is best, even for small oscars.

Welcome to the forum. :lol:
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tacha replied the topic: feelings

goodmorning,

thank you for the reassurance, i 'm always in a panic when something happens with my animals or when i think something is wrong :blush:

one oscar i gave away to a colleague who also has a large aquarium with cichlids. the other i kept in a 79 galion but after Christmas he will live in a
197 galion tank. (perhaps with another fish but i still do not know which because my hope was to keep two oscars but now i will have to adjust my choice)

the big belly from yesterday is gone, i will keep a good eye on how i feed the fish !!

thank you, grtz
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Suprd71 replied the topic: feelings

Have you been monitoring water parameters?


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  • Darth Nandopsis
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Darth Nandopsis replied the topic: feelings

Oscars, & quite a few other cichlids (JD's) are well known for "moodiness"....after a change in enviroment, after a WC, etc.

"they say fish have no feelings but I doubt that, I mean how can they test these things?"

A fishes brain is primative compared to higher animals. There is now a huge debate on whether a fish can express emotions, feel pain, etc. I personally believe that fish cannot not feel pain the way we do...their brains do not possess any limbic system that I am aware of, which controls emotions, or dopamine system, which is linked to pain centers, etc. (Some scientists state fish do, more state they don't) Nor do they possess a neo-cortex, which is part of the emotion controlling portion of a brain. If the brain does not possess these structures, than it cannot produce anything close to what we experience. Moodiness is simply a response to environmental stimuli, what we see as "pain" in a fish is simply a "fight or flight" response to, for example, being hooked by a fisherman. There are a lot of animal rights activists out there who would dispute that w/ anecdotal evidence about a fishes brain structure, but to argue that a brain that doesn't have the structure necessary for pain, emotion, etc can do so is ludicrous.

That being stated, fish do have a "smart" scale.......& cichlids, especially predatory ones, are fairly smart. If you are built to eat other fish, you better be able to outthink your prey....my Jag will stalk the 2 TF barbs I have in his 125GL, hiding behind rocks& driftwood, moving slowly towards his prey... classic ambush predator.

THOSE WHO REFUSE KNOWLEDGE ARE DOOMED TO FAIL.

WATER CHANGES ARE THE LIFEBLOOD OF THIS HOBBY. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE SO OR SIMPLY DON'T FEEL LIKE DOING THEM, RE-HOME YOUR FISH, SELL YOUR AQUARIUM & FIND ANOTHER HOBBY, AS YOU WILL FAIL UTTERLY, COMPLETELY, & MISERABLY.
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Poseidon2.0 replied the topic: feelings

Yeah, I imagine that quotations around "emotions" are a given when talking about fish brains. I think it is part of our (human) nature to project our own emotions, etc. onto other creatures. I do it all the time. Heck, I do it to my car and it has low grade artificial intelligence. :lol:
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tacha replied the topic: feelings

every morning i check my water before i give the oscar food and so far i have noticed no changes :)

i do not think that fish thinks like we do, but have "basic" feelings.
Unfortunately, the fish can not talk and we will never know with certainty ;)

the "moodiness" inside the oscar suits me perfectly, now i feel even more connected to the fish :silly:
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Suprd71 replied the topic: feelings

Can you elaborate on the water check. What are you checking and what are you using to for a test kit?


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Lammergeier replied the topic: feelings

I'm derailing with a bunch of links to science journal articles again. Sorry, I can't help myself.

There is actually quite a bit of evidence mounting that suggests (regardless of whether fish feel pain or not) that they may well be a lot smarter than they're given credit for. In fact, the work that I am doing in the fish lab is potentially related to this. There's a big review of the evidence suggesting that fish are quite intelligent here: link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10071-014-0761-0 I actually have the full review, and some interesting things from it. There's so much more stuff in here that's worth reading, but I can't link it all.

Fish memory:
A study on rainbowfish taught them to swim through a hole in a net that travelled down the length of their aquarium. It took 5 parses of the net for them to figure out an escape route. Tested almost a year later, they still remembered how to escape from the net. link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs100710100105

Social learning: Salmon learned how to hunt for live prey items siginificantly more quickly when they could observe conspecifics doing so, and that learning was inhibited by the presence of other fish that couldn't hunt said prey onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-8649.2002.tb01857.x/abstract

Self awareness: While fish can't recognise themselves in mirrors, a study on male cichlids found that the fish preferred their own smell compared to unrelated males or brothers www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19462188

Tool use: Wrasse use rocks to crush sea urchins to access the meat inside, and break open shellfish. link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00338-011-0790-y

Counting: Angelfish can differentiate between large shoals when the ratio is just below 2:1, they can also choose between 1v4 individuals, 3v1, 2v1 and 3v2, but couldnt between 4v3, 5v4 and 6v5. Guppies can differentiate between 3v4 individuals as easily as 1v4.

Pain Perception: There's a massive debate on it, but there is some compelling evidence to suggest at least some species can: www.appliedanimalbehaviour.com/article/S0168-1591%2803%2900113-8/abstract

Finally, while fish don't have a neocortex, they have a lot of analogous structures in their brains that have similar functions to other vertebrates. The most interesting one: The main divisions in an area of a fish brain called the telencephalic dorsal pallium are homologous to the high vertebrate hippocampus, amygdala AND neocortex. I can't link the paper - it's a chapter out of here onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9781444342536.ch15/summary
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Poseidon2.0 replied the topic: feelings

Lammergeier wrote: I'm derailing with a bunch of links to science journal articles again. Sorry, I can't help myself.


This is fantastic! Thanks for all this. I had imagined trying to find studies on fish intelligence on my work computer, but got massively lazy at the prospect, given it is not my field. This is why we keep you on here Lam! So helpful. (Just kidding -- there are other reasons too). :whistle:

"Telencephalic dorsal pallium" would make a good name for an Indie rock band. B)
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