HYBRID/CROSSBREED FISH- what is your take?

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ehall67 replied the topic: Re:HYBRID/CROSSBREED FISH- what is your take?

I have not got to read everything yet but I will later

Let me start with hybrids are a horrible part of our hobby truly should not be in it and any true cichlid club or community feels the same way (oca aca and so forth)

I have no idea who told u inter brewing between species was natural and happens because it does not ! People say look at dogs we interbreed them !! Well the answer is NO WE DONT! Dogs are all the same genus and species ! Fish are rarely the same genus and def not the same species! You are basically taking things that would never combine or should combine in the wild that is why they have different scientific name. Things with the same scientific name do not inter breed on purpose as almost a law!

Pure breeds do not make for problems ! Come one this logic is so faulty it is upsetting !! Pure breeding the same family moms and son with grandparents and nieces is the issue! Breed the same fish but from far off blood lines is the way it needs to be done! Come one guys.

People breed hybrids and sell then not saying they are hybrids which muddy our hobby and they sell to people who have no idea it is a hybrid and might breed with never knowing and putting worse blood lines in hobby!

And yes you never know when a species might be endangered! And to have the chance to help put.l these fish back in the wild would be great look up cares list so you can understand the value since some don't see it


Also is is unfair like I said for the. To even be in the hobby. JUst for the simple fact they could make it and breed with pure breed fish and it really ruins the hobby

Maybe later I will talk about selective evolution when I have more time

Disclaimer I'm not mad at any one or taking shots but I want people to understand some myths




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Big-Ken replied the topic: Re:HYBRID/CROSSBREED FISH- what is your take?

Gaarakilla19 wrote: I wonder how people got fish to breed a certain color.. did they just happen to get lucky n find 2 rare color fish and breed them or what?

The different colors, fins, and patterns are naturally genetic mutations. In the wild these genetic mutations wont survive for various reasons but in a breeders tank that will notice these mutations and then line breed to stabilize the new mutation

Sosban Fach wrote: That said pure bred breeding requires inbreds. This causes genetic deformities in all forms of life and can often give birth to creatures whom are doomed for a short life of suffering.

The reduced selection of beautiful pure breds is a shame; but it comes at a cost as I said above. More so Whilst You and I Darth have an apreciation for hese beuatiful fish, many others don't so to say one trade should live and the other die is kinda selfish.


While your correct that line breeding requires a certain amount of inbreeding but your overall knowledge or lack there of of how to line breed and the the tactics of line breeding correctly is shown in your post, a correctly line breed strain will be more stable and throw less defects than wild pairs. As darth has stated this isnt about line breeding so im not going to go into it but if your interested i suggest you look into the line breeding methods of discus and angel breeders

Unfortunately the proliferation of hybrids are pushing out the pure strains in the hobby destroying the trade
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Sosban Fach replied the topic: HYBRID/CROSSBREED FISH- what is your take?

My logic is not faulty, nobody told me. I tend to read a bit.

Yes your right it is almost law in science, but it is not absoloute and it is by no means ever intentional. Evolotion and divergance means that it is more difficult to cross breed. So its not a case of evoulotion putting up a defence against cross breeding. It evoloution doing what it does best, making more different things. Sometimes these things come back together, which is where cross breeding happens. For example did you know theres some very interesting evidence out there that butterflys and caterpillers were once seperate species, of course its lacking in pure evidence but an interesting idea regardless.

Heres an article from new scientist explaining the case of human cross breeding.

www.newscientist.com/article/mg22129542.600-neanderthalhuman...bred-light-skins-and-infertility.html?cmpid=RSS#.UyNGb5IgGSM

Here is an article stateing the dangers of selective breeding.

books.google.co.uk/books?id=2ec7Txf3KZkC&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq...AEwCw#v=onepage&q=selective%20breeding%20deformities&f=false

As i said purity can be considered a matter of opnion. Hitlers version of purity as it happens required strong neanderthol genetics. A pure bred homo sapien in terms of the original lineage is actually more likley afican decent.

Selective breeding programes atempting to achiece pure purity is like a cone. You start with a wide range and you breed getting tighter and tighter reduceing your selective tree each time. This leads to inbreeding.

It is also very difficult to argue the "its not natural" when in fact keeping fish in the confines of your aqaurium is wholly unatural.

Yes i understand that breeding programmes can be set up in an atempt to avoid inbreeding, but it still happens regardless. You cannot avoid it.

In either case selective breeding in itself ethically is on the same level of cross-breeding in my opnion.

So i think what it comes down to is simply which side of the trade you are on, which is compleltly down to preference. There is no right or wrong way here.

Personally i actually prefer the pure bred fish. So i guess no i wouldn't ever buy a Fh because well i just don't like them.
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ehall67 replied the topic: Re:HYBRID/CROSSBREED FISH- what is your take?

You are not hitting the points I said ?! A few links to selective breeding ?! What is that about I didn't say anything about just breeding a color I said if it has the same genus and species it can breed not looking to make a super red or something so ur still proving my point on fish ! They should just be breed for what they are and kept more natural so thanks !!

And you can avoid it in a great deal so you know I have as do the members of my cichlid club buy fish from all over and the wild an breed them that way out gene pools are deep buddy but we strive to do what is right ( 2nd biggest cichlid club in America btw)

And you are confusing cross breeding and evolution two diff things so sorry but you need to read a tad bit more .. Im serious they are not the same thing at all and it does not lead to one another. Not to be rude just telling you. And just because u put it in a tank means u can make it a mutant also huh?

And what about the in unresponsible sale of hybrids and the damage it does to out hobby?


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face mcshooty replied the topic: HYBRID/CROSSBREED FISH- what is your take?

i have to ask what's your thoughts on Mules .. a donkey and a Horse crossbreed

Don't dwell on what went wrong. Instead focus on what to do next
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jmunroe replied the topic: Re:HYBRID/CROSSBREED FISH- what is your take?

face mcshooty wrote: i have to ask what's your thoughts on Mules .. a donkey and a Horse crossbreed

Now your just makin an @ss of yourself. Lol. Sorry just kidding, I couldn't let that one slip by. Mules have been bred to help humans. It is unethical but we don't exactly do everything ethical as humans to help us survive and make our lives easier. I would never collect mules as a hobby by the way.

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Sosban Fach replied the topic: HYBRID/CROSSBREED FISH- what is your take?

I know evoloution and cross breeding are not the same thing. I did not suggest that they were. I find it quite odd that you could construde the possibillity of anyone making that mistake. Darwin is on our currency. I have a fourth edition of origin of species on my shelf. I live in the county where Darwin lived and visit cambridge on a farily regular basis. Even if I hadnt grasped the concept when i was younger its kinda difficult not to know what evoloution is around these parts.

I said that neanderthols were a seperate species of human. I thought most people knew this already. We did not evolve from neandtherols, they split off the line and then our ancestors bred with them.

I am not trying to hit your points ehal. Im backing the points I made earlier, which simply was that cross breeding does happen in nature. And selective breeding does have issues, which yes you can be very careful about it, but it is the same process with hybrids. Looking at a fish or the liniage then decided what you want to breed.

I am considering selective breeding programmes vs hybrids. In my opnion ethically they are the same.

So as far as i am concened the whole thing is simply down to personal preference. There is no right or wrong way. So what this really is, is one industry or hobby threatening a version of another.

Which i can understand is very important to people and i can understand when something threatens something you are really pasionate about its very easy to get angry about it. This destructive force to your/our hobby happens to have a figurehead, which seems to be hybrids.
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ehall67 replied the topic: HYBRID/CROSSBREED FISH- what is your take?

Soban Buddy I have not red the article but I will today thank you for the read that was rude of me but listen even if we did cross breed with Neanderthals ….

THEY ARE THE SAME GENUS AS US!!! diff species yes but look man is is still not the same as inter breeding fish.. Thats what we are trying to get at

and as far as line breeding and making hybrids being the same evil… well still an emphatic no because they are the same genus AND species! And this can be done responsibility just ask Ken ! he was mixing many blood lines into his fish! this was the only way to not only get the color but produce a healthy fish. so they are just not the same and their is NO way you can say they are especially if done correctly ?

I mean You can live where you live but I still do not agree with the logic you have presented us with! I still like you fish tho lol!

and if hybrids are let run rampant do you think that would be good if you never know what species of fish you were buying ? especially with africans? Answer me that? because I hate looking at pet smart and seeing mixed africans AKA they are hybrids ..

Also I read the article now and says that inbreeding may have happened as little as 4 times throughout history there is NO way you are going to use that as backing for you argument over thousands of years a 4 time event that has little significance! To something that could be happening. Thousands of times in 4 days .... Also I highly doubt it was consensual interbreeding back then boss man

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ehall67 replied the topic: Re:HYBRID/CROSSBREED FISH- what is your take?

jmunroe wrote:

face mcshooty wrote: i have to ask what's your thoughts on Mules .. a donkey and a Horse crossbreed

Now your just makin an @ss of yourself. Lol. Sorry just kidding, I couldn't let that one slip by. Mules have been bred to help humans. It is unethical but we don't exactly do everything ethical as humans to help us survive and make our lives easier. I would never collect mules as a hobby by the way.


ps really mules?! :pinch:

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robham7770 replied the topic: Re:HYBRID/CROSSBREED FISH- what is your take?

This is a very interesting topic, and I thought I would put in my 2xcents. I don't have a blood parrot or FH, not because they are hybrids, but I just don't find them appealing. The biggest issue, as I see it, is the one of ethics. I am not saying it is unethical to let fish interbreed, but it is unethical to market offspring as something they are not. I recently purchased two festae cichlids only to discover that is not what they are. They may be mayan, or could be some hybrid, I am still not sure. I was really let down that they were not what was represented by the lfs. Who is to blame for this? Either the fish store thought festae would sell better than whatever, or it is a sloppy, ignorant, or unethical breeder. Either way if I ended up breeding one of these fish with an actual festae, I could easily put them back into the market on a small scale, and unknowingly misrepresent what I had.
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